00:01 . Speaker: 1:
Hey there, Joseph here. Quick question for you. How many people, just like you, did you see in the media growing up In today's episode? Myself, Claire, and Felicia Awards are covering a topic that it is as important as it is scary for businesses, marketing representation. How can businesses be more inclusive? What is marketing representation versus inclusivity, or what does inclusivity and representation mean to us growing up compared to now? Today we are hosting the show a little bit differently. This episode is more conversational and raw than all the show.

00:33 . Speaker: 1:
Before we decided to have Felicia Ward as a co-host of the show rather than just a guest. And Felicia brought her expertise on working. We Action. Take as CEO to the mic for you today. Inclusivity is a part of this digital boss's value, which is why we decided to open up today and share our background growing up in different countries and cultures. Share our experience, hoping for you to relate, connect, and feel empowered to embrace your amazing, unique self, even in business without her to reduce. Let's get to it. Welcome to the Digital Boss's podcast with Joseph

01:06 . Speaker: 2:
And Claire. Our definition of being your own boss means showing up for yourself so you can show up for everyone and everything personally and professionally. So

01:15 . Speaker: 1:
Congratulations on showing up, Boss. We created the Digital Bosses podcast to give you simple, actionable step, step strategies to help you start, grow and build a purposeful online business. If

01:25 . Speaker: 2:
You are a business owner creator, looking to build an impactful brand that makes a difference, you are in the right place.

01:32 . Speaker: 1:
So let's save in.

01:34 . Speaker: 3:
Welcome to the Digital Bosses Podcasts. And today it is a little bit different. We have two hosts, actually three with me, Felicia porting from Philadelphia, and then we are Claire from Toronto. Hello guys. How are you

01:46 . Speaker: 4:
Joseph, How are

01:47 . Speaker: 5:
You? Good morning. I'm doing well, doing well. Super excited you see

01:52 . Speaker: 3:
You both. It is so awesome. And today we are talking about a topic that I think is really needed to be discussed because we are talking about our presentation and just to give a little bit of a perspective about what's been happening, listening to this on an audio, you don't see the video. We have a very key representation here. So we have myself, I am Italian, uh, I am an Italian gay man that we have , that we have Claire from Toronto. But generally in

02:18 . Speaker: 5:
My background, my parents are from Taiwan and I grew up even Vancouver. So I represent, uh, when I travel pretty much a lot and then live in different places. So presentation of Demographic Asians and Felicia .

02:31 . Speaker: 4:
Sure. And I represent African American and also Native American. So, uh, I kind of represent the United States and what's going on with minorities in the

02:42 . Speaker: 3:
US and that's amazing. And they, we are playing the game a little bit differently because we all gonna be hosts of the show. There's not gonna be a guest. We are gonna be hosts and we all are going to share what is our, you know, feedback and experience when it comes to representation coming from different countries as well and living in different, different countries. I think this episode is a very key part of how representation looks like across the globe and how improve it, learn from it and actually relate to it. Well Claire, I will lead the mic to you.

03:12 . Speaker: 5:
Well, so Felicia, why don't you start with who you are and what you do and what is your superpower?

03:18 . Speaker: 4:
So I'm a marketing communications strategist. I've been doing it for about 35 years. I specialize in crisis management and thought leadership marketing and I work with, uh, sea-level executives and entrepreneurs in helping refine their message, clarity, their branding in terms of personal branding and also I work with them on trying to create bespoke content so they can move forward an authority, um, in their position. Beautiful. And my superpower would probably be, I, I love marketing, but uh, consumer behavior, I think that's my superpower since I was time as a small child to go to the mall and watch people shop and interact and see who had bags, who was having a sale and how people interacted with the sales people.

04:02 . Speaker: 4:
And

04:03 . Speaker: 5:
Oh, you lay on that ones, Ashley, still the shopping spirit and then checking on people behavior. So yeah,

04:09 . Speaker: 4:
You take it all in, you know, and it's really helpful. It's helpful, Yeah, it's helpful. And working with your marketing plants to, to interact with customers, uh, to see, to, to be a fly on the wall and see how people, what people actually do versus what they say

04:25 . Speaker: 3:
They have to say. I do agree with you because it is sort of a people watching taken to the next level, isn't it? It says a lot about you in the way you interact with other people and talking about interaction. I have a question for both of you. What would you say was your experience, Felicia, for example, for a presentation in media growing up? What was your experience growing up in America and you know, did you feel like you were represented?

04:48 . Speaker: 4:
I was a kid pretty much of the eighties, so I was living at a time where we had the, for the first time ever it was groundbreaking that we had the Cosby Show. We had different, right, you got to see, uh, multiple, you know, different shows with different minorities and there was a lot of shows that were number one where you were able to see African Americans and it came. And in terms of broadcast, some of the top broadcasters were female African Americans. And it was the first time you saw them what it was instead of straight hair. So it was a burgeoning time where people are like, Wow, we're in our power.

05:23 . Speaker: 4:
Previously we were seen stereotypically where they were criminals or, uh, you know, background people and they were poor. So here it was the Cosby Show comes out and all these shows could show, there were doctors, there were lawyers, there were different socioeconomic backgrounds that represented more of what I saw in it, made people proud. I think that's what was what, how I interpret it and perceived it and it really was helpful to

05:49 . Speaker: 3:
Me. And how about you Claire? How was your experience growing up in Canada and you know, being Asian was, was there such a thing? Maybe in the Canadian tv I'm talking about TV because of course we come from a generation where there was no social media, so TV was the best medium we can kind of relate to. So what was your

06:07 . Speaker: 5:
Experience? Oh, first of all, I love this question cuz it really draw me to, you know, I'm in the eighties , so I think this is something I can really resonate with Felicia. Um, I mean growing up in Vancouver, I mean obviously at that time, I mean I hang out with lots of people are just like me. Um, but when it, when it come to diversities and um, representation in media at the time, you know, even where I came from, my backgrounds, you know, I study fashions and beauties. I didn't really always see a lot of representation and I remember back, um, and he was like, okay, these are how people look like, you know, there's always a certain way how they talk about beauty, you know?

06:45 . Speaker: 5:
And I always just feel like, oh my God, how could I be lightning? And then I had to use this, an example, I think Felicia, I can totally resonate.

06:54 . Speaker: 5:
Remember the magazine 17 magazine? Mm-hmm. mm-hmm . So I grew up watching, like reading that magazine because always looks so pretty. And then, you know, and then there's obviously at the time you see colors but you don't see lots of Asians at the time in the market. Right? Right. And then so at growing up as a teenager and then obviously I'm not the typical like Chinese, you know, like I'm pretty internal, I'm not fair. Mm-hmm. and I do have a hip , you know, I'm but curly, uh, which I talked about a lot, it's also part of my body awareness.

07:25 . Speaker: 5:
But when you actually see in the tv, you see the media, you always have that confusion in, for me example. And then I was like, okay, part of I was like, how could I be like that? How could I look like that?

07:38 . Speaker: 5:
And then when I was a teenager, everyone's a couple year would talk, go to uh, Taiwan and I would go, I would go to Asia and I was like, well I, I don't really look like them cuz they're all very skinny and they're very fair . So I was like, you know, um, so part of me, I really struggle cuz um, I didn't really like, I mean how do me, I didn't know what a self-accepting is. And then also because what you see with the western culture and the orientate culture. So I was actually trying to find a re representation and how to really like myself in terms of my own identity back then.

08:15 . Speaker: 5:
You know, not like how these days people just talked about it, you can share on social media, the knowledge is so much more back in your eighties, you know? Mm-hmm.

08:24 . Speaker: 5:
. And then when I actually, uh, moved to London uk, um, I was actually like, like overwhelmed. The fact is how much diversity in London you need, You see different race, different cultures. And I was like, oh my god, that I was really blown by. And then I was always influenced by how people live their culture and then the language. And then when I moved to Italy and uh, I remember uh, in my twenties and then obviously at the time, you know, working in fashions, I, I saw lots of lot pretty much they were like white people, white models, you know?

08:58 . Speaker: 5:
Mm-hmm , you don't see many that colors people again, it's kind of like self-esteem. You kinda like, oh my god, how, why do I look so beautiful? Why they look certain way. And I sometimes just kind of like trying really hard to fit in that societies and then trying to how I can be like them, you know?

09:19 . Speaker: 5:
But obviously I can go bleach my skin figure that just, you know, uh, can I be taller? Can I be skinnier? You know, can, can, am I gonna go bleach my hair? So the representation, sometimes there was a confusion and I, I'm pretty sure lots of people can resonates just like me, you know? And then because at that time you, it's not always easy, go out and talk about it and you kind of always trying to find that identification of who you are and then try to fit in the, the medias and then whatever you see, yeah, you, you really trying to find a mural and sometimes you wonder, okay, where do you really belong to?

09:56 . Speaker: 5:
And then you know, by how I grew up and traveling to different places and then constantly trying to find a belonging, uh, like where do I fit in myself in the so society. So yeah.

10:07 . Speaker: 1:
Hey Joseph here. How's it going? Are you enjoying today's episode? What is your biggest takeaway? If you like what you're hearing and you would like to support us, make sure you go over an Apple podcast leaving us a review. Five stars for good camera. We value each and every feedback and yours matters the most. Plus we really want to improve here. So make sure you go over an Apple podcast today and let us know what are your thoughts. Now back to the shelves.

10:30 . Speaker: 4:
So Joseph, I wanted to ask you, what was it like for you in representation for you growing up in Italy, being a male, being queer, What was it

10:39 . Speaker: 3:
Like? Actually it is really interesting because I feel like I, I learn a lot from you and your experience, but I always known I was gay. I feel like I always known and I came out as a gay person as 17 years old and growing up in a country, very Catholic, very conservative. Everybody in Italy is very attached to their roots and everything has to be in a specific way and if you don't fit in that way, you are just excluded. And I have to say now it's very different and why there is a lot of work to still do.

11:12 . Speaker: 3:
It's so much better than it used to be. For me, what was very difficult was growing up I will watch TV series and we do have a huge American influence in Italy. We do watch a lot of American tv. Uh, there is a lot of American mimic and things.

11:28 . Speaker: 3:
They will take a format, they will copy and paste it in Italian. The funny one is you guys have Saturday Night Live and in Italy they do the the same, but for some reason it is on a Wednesday, not on a Saturday . So it's like, you know, that was, that's how they do it. They kind of copy a form, they don't quite get it and they just make it different. But you know, for me what was really difficult was that yes there was a little bit of of representation of gay people. Just the stereotypical gay person that you would expected to be very flamboyant, very, you know, very glittery.

12:01 . Speaker: 3:
And in 2022 as we speak, that is still the same representation. It hasn't changed. Right, okay. And you know, we are talking about a culture where if you are a celebrity and you come out as a gay person and you do your coming out in public media, they pay you about 500 k just to say that you're gay, that's Italy for you.

12:23 . Speaker: 3:
Okay. Wow. So like if you have actors, there was a very famous actor in Italy that came out as a gay guy and he said, you know, I'm gay, Be gay. And he became like front page news in Italy to England in my early twenties. And I realized how everything is so much strange that way. Nobody really cares. You can be whatever you wanna be. Whether in Italy there is a lot of interest about who you like, who you go to bed with, who you fancy. There's a lot of that. And say I'm thankful because I grew up in a very open minded family.

12:54 . Speaker: 3:
My family was very open minded. They accepted me in a very, you know, easy way. It was not much of a drama there. But growing up I would say I didn't feel quite like the gay person they represented or I hope the new generation has the gift to be able to see themself in a different way. And it's funny that you said about your representation in media growing up in the eighties because I grew up with family matters and Willie, the principal will the of be

13:23 . Speaker: 4:
Fresh friends.

13:24 . Speaker: 3:
Yeah, yeah. You know, and I remember that in Italy there was a big thing because there was no representation of black people on tv. And I remember having a friend of mine, we were schoolmates and he was so excited about the fact that there was somebody like him on TV eye open for me because if you think about when I work in beauty, um, I started working in beauty in Italy and one of the biggest problem was the fact that Poolman in Italy, it's really hard to find a foundation. It's really hard to find, you know, the makeup that suits your skin type and you know.

13:59 . Speaker: 3:
Right. I remember one of the biggest mistake people used to do in my industry was that, oh you know, you're a black skin, you only have to go with bright colors. That is not quite true because you might want to wear nudes. Right. And I dunno if you relate to that, but that's what, that was my experience, you know, of misrepresentation if you will, of your culture. The question I have for you Felicia, what is your take on council culture and do you think we are going a bit too far with the inclusivity now? Or do you think, do you think it has to get worse before it gets better?

14:30 . Speaker: 3:
I want your inside of that.

14:32 . Speaker: 4:
I think it has to get worse before it gets better because I believe that the purpose of cancel culture is to call people out. And when you call people out and you bring to the awareness as to why a person is being canceled, it makes people go, Oh, I didn't realize I was offending anyone. I didn't realize that this was even an issue. Um, I think it goes too far when people kind of go back too far. I'm not a proponent of going back 30 years to say something that Kevin Hart the comedian said 20, 30 years ago.

15:07 . Speaker: 4:
I think that's too far. I think when you're doing cancel culture, you should look at what person has said in the last two years, three years, something like that where it's relevant to the time. Uh, because as you know, if you said the word gay in the 1940s and thirties, it meant happy and you fast forward to the person saying gay.

15:28 . Speaker: 4:
Now it has a completely different meaning. And what was acceptable to be said 20 years from now, even 10 years from now. It's different. I mean, um, I'll, I'll give you an example. People that are older don't know what to call people of color because they grew up where you call people colored, they call them negro, they call them Afro-American and now it's African American. And lately if you, yeah, notice they took the hyphen out. So they've taken the hyphen out of Asian American, Native American. They're like, no, there's no hyphen that's needed.

16:00 . Speaker: 4:
In other words, you're part of the culture, you're part of the country, you shouldn't have a hyphenated thing. But as things grow and change, people that are older can't keep up, I believe cancel culture. That's where you lose people. Where you have to let people sit with something for a minute and understand when all the different pronouns and things come up.

16:21 . Speaker: 4:
I remember working in crisis management, I could tell you things that have happened 10 years ago when they were talking about using, uh, bathrooms and that they were gonna have unit sex, bathroom. Remember it was huge big problem. It was a big issue that people, I won't shop there. If you go to the mall and it says his hers and maybe they, and it was a major issue and family bathrooms years before that, just to have a family bathroom where people could do baby changes stations. That was a major issue. And now we don't even talk about it.

16:52 . Speaker: 4:
So there are things that come up that are knee jerk reaction and it becomes a major issue and then it gets blown over and then we move on to something else. And so in that sense, that's where people have a problem with cancer culture. They can't keep up and you need to sit with something and explain, oh you've, I've called a company out because they're doing this and because they're doing this, this is what we're going to do so that they get slapped on the hand. But what you find, especially in the designer world, you see a lot of designers now utilizing that as a publicity stunt that they purposefully, yeah, they purposely offend people with the co with the outfit or the design so that it gets a lot of buzz and people talk about it, it gets all this type of publicity and they show their whole collection for the season.

17:41 . Speaker: 4:
So there's one item that's bad, but the whole collection gets shown on television for weeks at a time. So that's where people can abuse, cancel, uh, cancel culture.

17:51 . Speaker: 3:
Right. And Claire, what is your take on council culture? Do you agree with Felicia? Do you think there is a moment where it's been where it's taken too far? I

18:01 . Speaker: 5:
Totally agree. Um, the stuff that Felicia, you are sharing because I think where we are right now and then the generation we are headings obviously. I think this topic is definitely, it's an ongoing and can we change it instantly? No, but I definitely do think it's, the more we talk about it, the more we knowledge to people mm-hmm. mm-hmm , they are more aware I think in terms of the vocabulary of how we name people.

18:34 . Speaker: 5:
Cause I think that we all have um, processions how we see certain type of people. But it's it's way Correct. No, but because it's what we actually saw from the media. So we have a typical way of how we think of this type of a culture, this type of the people. But it may not always be a hundred percent true. So I think that's what I have to say, do a lot of work to do.

19:00 . Speaker: 5:
Um, and we are much more open to talk about it, but haven't been talking enough, especially in the workplace where I came from, from um, corporates. I think in Canada in general, we are pretty diverse, pretty multi cultures. But in the workplace I do think that is something we can count out as. And then especially really teach the, um, the younger generation, especially their colors. Cuz sometime you really trying to find a way of how to fit in. And especially social media these days, you know, you see all type of people, but you, I always feel that, um, if we can be really transparent about talking certain type of topics and be aware of like who you're talking to, the type of language, um, how to educate to talk better, I feel like the world will be in the better place.

19:49 . Speaker: 5:
I do have something I would like to ask you, Felicia. What is the biggest mistake you see businesses doing in marketing campaigns in this day and age when it come to inclusivity and representation?

20:03 . Speaker: 4:
I think the biggest problem is that it's an empty promise in that I think a lot of companies think that if they just have representation in their ads, that that's enough. And what people want to see is in addition to the ads, they want to know that your core beliefs are in alignment with your mission of your company. So I remember Benton, if you guys, they did a fantastic international campaign Yeah. But they also put money behind what they were doing in terms of causes.

20:36 . Speaker: 4:
And I think that's what the problem is. I think people think, well, I'll just have an ad and I'll create a Benton ad and someone will be white, black, Asian, this or whatever. And then what happens is you go to the store or you interact with the company and there's this empty promise where you're like, Oh, uh, I don't see the representation.

20:54 . Speaker: 4:
Um, yeah, you're you're not following through with it an exclusivity. You don't, you have not adopted a diversity policy. And I look at the board of directors of your company and I look at representation as to who's in the C-suite, who are the leaders of your, your company. It's not there. So you basically are telling me that the people that came up with this concept are just utilizing the fact that they've paid for pretty images. And that is a huge, huge problem that diver, like what Claire was talking about, the biggest part I think when I lived in New York City when I related to both of you, is that when you live in a diverse culture, people get along because it's not a major issue.

21:33 . Speaker: 4:
Everyone has to get along, you're in a tight space. They don't, they're not worried about like what, what Joseph said, who you like, who you fancy.

21:41 . Speaker: 4:
Pretty much people accept the cultures. And what happens is when you go into cities that are culturally diverse, you see the cultural diversity in the ads and you also see the cultural diversity and how they promote and underscore their mission. And I think what happens is that companies figure, if I just front facing have multiple color people in my ads, that that's enough. And what Claire said about the belonging, it's diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging.

22:11 . Speaker: 4:
That is why people leave companies because there's no belonging. You've brought them into the company and said, Okay, we've hired people of color and then they leave because there's no mentorship, there's no support, there's no welcoming, and they're not connecting. So the connectivity of having a diverse advertising campaign versus how that reflects in your mission statement, how that reflects in your core values and your business objectives, it has to follow all the

22:37 . Speaker: 3:
Way through. I agree. Showcase this so well. It's not really what happens in the ad, but what happens in the, you know, in the corporate ladder, whether you are represented in the right way and it has to be a 360 representation. And of course it takes a little bit of time, don't expect everybody to be super inclusive, only one girl. But that's why I also think sometimes it's better to take a step back and actually to not take the avenue for your advertising campaign and maybe hold back until you are behind the scene in your corporate lab that is equal, right? So that you can showcase that and representing in the right way.

23:09 . Speaker: 3:
I think that's a very big takeaway. And if you're listening right now and you think there is more to be added to this topic, please reach out to our social media. Felicia, where can our listener find you?

23:21 . Speaker: 4:
Sure. I'm on uh, LinkedIn. I'm on Instagram as at Felicia Word marketing. And I'm also, I believe on TikTok a little bit as well, but primarily LinkedIn and Instagram.

23:32 . Speaker: 1:
All right. That is it for the day. Now, that was a jam packed episode full of value just for you. But let me tell you a secret. The best conversations actually happen after the show over at the digital boss's page on Instagram. You're more welcome to join the tribe there.